We don't have to trust [miners] to be "honest" as Satoshi unfortunately worded it.
Replace the term honest with "intelligently profit-seeking."
Bitcoin assumes miners are intelligently profit-seeking, meaning that they have a decent enough read on what the ecosystem wants that they can and will make any necessary changes to please the ecosystem and thus boost their own bottom line.
Greg's recent comments on BU totally discredited him, as he revealed himself to have no friggin' idea how Bitcoin works.
He actually thought "honest" meant something like "plays by Core rules." That's a completely broken understanding of Bitcoin, and implies centralization.
It's the kind of misconception I'd expect from a run-of-the-mill nobody on a forum, not from the mighty leader of Core/BS. I'm kinda pissed I wasted mental clock ticks trying to debate this guy without realizing he has not just a flawed understanding, but zero understanding of how Bitcoin works at all. And of course all his supporters parrot his nonsense view of how Bitcoin supposedly works.
Mining control is the key invention of Bitcoin. It's how it doesn't just devolve into yet another failed subjective monetary scheme. If you don't like it, you should figure out another scheme. Perhaps proof of stake is more your thing?
Also, it's pretty amazing that you think just because BU makes it more convenient for miners to do what they always could do, that that somehow dooms Bitcoin. If that dooms it, it was already a dead man walking.
How do you propose to stop miners from altering their own blocksize settings?
If you have no answer, you have no grounds to attack BU without falling into the category of being a Bitcoin skeptic.
It's actually fairly subtle: mining IS how you vote for rule changes, BUT miners have every incentive to vote with the market, so they DON'T have any meaningful ability to push rules on the community (even under BU).
There is no trust or "honesty" involved, as Satoshi unfortunately worded it. There is only the underlying assumption that makes Bitcoin work: the assumption that the vast majority of miners are INTELLIGENTLY PROFIT-SEEKING.
The only way this system can break is if the majority of miners seek something other than profit (say a government took the major mining pools over and somehow hashers couldn't switch away in time), or the miners misjudge what the market wants (due to a failure of market communication).
However, in this case and on these timescales it is obvious the current crop of miners are generally profit-seeking. And if they are misjudging the market, we have a remedy: we can resolve that through fork futures trading on the exchanges.
Note that this is just moving the decision from the first kind of investors (miners) to the general investing public. Miners are a first-line proxy for investors in general. If they fail to reflect investor will, investors are free to take it to the market by forking and trading the two sides of the fork (preferably as futures so as to avoid scrambling to upgrade urgently).
Also important would be to maximize freedom of discussion so that market communication is not distorted. Finally, the whole idea of the UASF people, that we would poll the ecosystem somehow to prove the economic majority wants some change, already means that merely showing this proof to the miners should convince them, as they are intelligently profit-seeking. But that obviates the need for a UASF in the first place (!).
I used to think they don't understand markets, but in fact they are stuck at an even more basic level than that.
I took a spin through the wreckage of /Bitcoin today for the first time in weeks. It was pleasantly surprising to see how with the ramping up of miner support for BU, the Core arguments have been reduced to obvious fundamental misunderstandings of Bitcoin that are now trivial to rebut.
In a word, they haven't actually grasped the concept of incentives.
This goes all the way to the top, not just the supporters but the key Core devs themselves. They don't understand markets, yes, but it's not like they are even close. They lack the understanding of even the fundamental building blocks of markets.
When you think about it, governance by incentives is pretty subtle. Even if one reads the whitepaper and goes, "Oh yeah I see, miners would be motivated not to kill the golden goose in that situation," it is quite another matter to fully internalize the fact that the only reason Bitcoin is a thing at all is because of the assumption that miners are not idiots. Or more accurately, that miners as a group will never have a gross failure to correctly apprehend the wishes of the market.
This is the source of all the weird claims about miners controlling or not controlling Bitcoin.
Core and Blockstream dev Matt Corallo thinks that if miners were allowed to (not mentioning how they could be disallowed to), they would mine extra coins for all the "extra profits." Again this goes beyond failing to understand markets, all the way down to failing to understand or take seriously incentives as a concept at all. I'm not blaming him, he's a coder; I blame those who take his commentary on non-coding matters seriously, merely by dint of his coding skill.
A constant refrain from Core supporters as BU gain hashpower is that "miners don't control Bitcoin." This is actually correct: miners don't control Bitcoin, they won't act against the economic majority. But not because they can't. They certainly can, just like oncoming traffic can swerve toward you on the freeway. But they don't, because that would destroy them as well.
Thus is the subtlety of governance by incentives. Miners have control, but they won't use it to do anything that displeases the ecosystem, on balance. Or they might, but in that case Bitcoin is a failed concept as its fundamental assumption is then proven to be broken.
Many or most anti-BU arguments unwittingly take that form: they start with the premise that Bitcoin is broken [i.e., miners are idiots or that they grossly fail to read the market] and reason from there to conclude that BU is broken. Examples include the median EB attack, the various big block attacks, and the bizarre claim that BU has a "new security model" because it "lets miners do something they couldn't before" (ironically implying Core has snuck in a new security model where they try to restrain miners by making it inconvenient for them to change a blocksize setting).
Hence we see that it isn't merely a matter of Core and Blockstream people having initially dismissed Bitcoin and then later seeing the light when the price rises forced them to look deeper. They in fact still haven't seen the light. They never fully understood the basic dynamic that makes Bitcoin tick, let alone understanding higher level concepts like markets. This is why they so easily fall into the central planning mindset, seeing Bitcoin as a fragile little thing that must be defended by their wise paternalistic guidance.
The Core devs have replaced the fundamental assumption in the whitepaper, that most miners are honest (I prefer "most miners are not idiots" as it is harder to misinterpret), with the fundamental assumption that the right set of people (or the right repository governance structure) is in charge of the "reference implementation."
This manifests as a kind of envy toward the miners and comes with all the other curious trappings of the Core worldview: the code is the spec, hard forks are dangerous, Core = Bitcoin, anything that deviates from Core diktats is an "altcoin," it doesn't count as censorship to delete discussion of alternative clients as they are "off topic," nodes > miners, anything that makes it a bit easier for miners to do something Core doesn't like is an "attack" on Bitcoin, centralized control by Core is necessary to preserve decentralization, UASF is a viable idea, Segwit has consensus among "the Bitcoin experts," and so on.
Estimated Core hashrate down below 2/3 already.
Core has lost supermajority status, even with all the historical inertia, miner conservatism, and crackerjack programmers they are reported to have on their side. Even with the "consensus" of "the experts."
Even with two years of mindbendingly extreme censorship in their favor on the two biggest Bitcoin discussion forums.
The Core devs have directly created this situation by keeping the blocksize cap locked down long after it became controversial. The logic of how users make needed changes to the protocol, as mentioned in the whitepaper, requires that users be able to easily adjust any settings that are controversial, so as to be able to "vote with their CPU" power in a smooth manner.
Core tries to leverage their waning "reference implementation" status to rig the vote by deliberately leaving the now maximally controversial blocksize limit hard-coded, forcing the user to venture out into relatively new dev team offerings if they want to cast a vote. This is exactly how you create the conditions for a contentious split. They have brought this upon themselves entirely.
Adam implies BU is pre-alpha, yet it is winning in the only arena where people actually put their money where their mouths are.
How pathetic does it make Core that they are losing to a pre-alpha client?
[Of course, that scene finishes with knocking out the "recovering" patient so he can be taken away...not to mention the absurdity of including Monty Python in a financial article, but moving right along.]
I am not providing financial advice and I do not make any recommendations of any sort on any matters. Make your own decisions; do your own research. Please, I do not want to hear about anyone doing anything "on my advice." I am not offering advice.And I'll reiterate that I own about 30% [g] of the current supply of NYAN, which makes me by definition maximally biased.
👆lolComment removed from /badeconomics - lowskilled_immigrant - Created on 07/24/18 00:00:42 UTC - permalink
Serves you cunts right. Vote in shit, get your shit on your face.Comment removed from /Economics - speciesunworthy - Created on 07/24/18 00:22:06 UTC - permalink
Nope just a patriot pissed off at economic attacks on my country. I'm actively boycotting US products and travel where feasible. They voted for this so FUCK THEM.Comment removed from /Economics - speciesunworthy - Created on 07/24/18 00:27:56 UTC - permalink
Same here even switched to locally made vodka and beer. Remember, they hate us cuz they ain’t us. Hopefully the next one in office undoes all the shit this one has doneComment removed from /Economics - lord-derricicus - Created on 07/24/18 01:36:14 UTC - permalink
The reason why fiat has failed is largely due to the global elite purchasing bitcoin. Effectively moving the supply curve right and decreasing demand for paper currency.Comment removed from /badeconomics - Augustus_Trollus_III - Created on 07/24/18 01:52:26 UTC - permalink
I honestly couldn’t care less about the plight of some soybean farmers.Comment removed from /Economics - FloatyFish - Created on 07/24/18 02:14:40 UTC - permalink
You're an idiot, good luckComment removed from /Economics - europeanconsumer - Created on 07/24/18 03:08:42 UTC - permalink
Says the dude who posts in t_dComment removed from /Economics - Spy_v_Spy_Freakshow - Created on 07/24/18 03:12:20 UTC - permalink
Yeah, and guess what, they aren't going to just give it back either!Comment removed from /Economics - CarbonLifeForm69 - Created on 07/24/18 03:31:10 UTC - permalink
Geeze, you sound exactly like a Trump voter, dude. Take it easy.Comment removed from /Economics - tktk77 - Created on 07/24/18 03:52:15 UTC - permalink
That’s a pretty shortsighted approach to takeComment removed from /Economics - 255979119 - Created on 07/24/18 04:40:38 UTC - permalink
So essentially.... capitalism vs communism?Comment removed from /AskEconomics - waynerooney501 - Created on 07/24/18 04:59:50 UTC - permalink
Price theory only applies to firms when they face decreasing returns to scale, hence it really doesn't describe many parts of the real economy.Comment removed from /AskEconomics - themountaingoat - Created on 07/24/18 05:04:09 UTC - permalink
Yeh fuck farmers! Who needs food anyways. Fuckin jabroniComment removed from /Economics - czechweasel - Created on 07/24/18 05:20:34 UTC - permalink
You get what you voted for.Comment removed from /Economics - Muny30 - Created on 07/24/18 05:36:58 UTC - permalink
Yup serves these hillbillies right.Comment removed from /Economics - littlecro - Created on 07/24/18 08:08:23 UTC - permalink
At least some poor underage pregnant girls won't be getting abortions...Comment removed from /Economics - cd411 - Created on 07/24/18 11:44:30 UTC - permalink
Trump voters getting exactly what they voted for.Comment removed from /Economics - drobinsondn - Created on 07/24/18 12:09:49 UTC - permalink
So, because they’re farmers they’re all Trump-supporting hillbillies?Comment removed from /Economics - maosaysmiao - Created on 07/24/18 12:17:17 UTC - permalink
I don’t eat soy, therefore I’m not impacted 😀Comment removed from /Economics - FloatyFish - Created on 07/24/18 12:24:26 UTC - permalink
They voted for Trump which means they’re responsible for this. I’m tired of hearing them bitch about their plight when it’s self inflicted.Comment removed from /Economics - FloatyFish - Created on 07/24/18 12:29:07 UTC - permalink
I know, it’s not fair. But since we are all suffering because of what is going on and people’s kids are sitting around in cages, I’m not gonna feel that bad if the South suffers with us. They can bear the burden of their shit decisions.Comment removed from /Economics - littlecro - Created on 07/24/18 13:06:14 UTC - permalink
Maybe I haven't read enough articles, but I'd like to see more and more of these people being adversely affected by the tariffs start to call Trump by name or to express regret in voting for him.Comment removed from /Economics - MasterClown - Created on 07/24/18 13:31:25 UTC - permalink
That's why the Republicans will make sure the US famers don't even notice.Comment removed from /Economics - It-Wanted-A-Username - Created on 07/24/18 13:45:36 UTC - permalink
They're bring back a depression-era program to subsidize the farmers hurt during the trade war. This should hold over the rural republican voters until the midterm or even the presidential election. They'll just use tax dollars to pay for farmers being hurt by the trade war as long as they keep voting republican.
Hey, I'm a 30 year old American!Comment removed from /Economics - pwlocke13 - Created on 07/24/18 13:53:06 UTC - permalink
So their answer is to steal it and redistributeComment removed from /Economics - AFreedomLover - Created on 07/24/18 14:11:15 UTC - permalink
Got any better ideas?Comment removed from /Economics - joehillen - Created on 07/24/18 14:22:47 UTC - permalink
Innovation, hard work, not being a victim, stop the pity party. Stop blaming everyone else.Comment removed from /Economics - AFreedomLover - Created on 07/24/18 14:25:30 UTC - permalink
Taxes aren’t stealing.Comment removed from /Economics - Finally_Adult - Created on 07/24/18 14:38:44 UTC - permalink
Cool storyComment removed from /Economics - shades344 - Created on 07/24/18 14:44:05 UTC - permalink
You are arguing semantics.Comment removed from /Economics - persolb - Created on 07/24/18 14:46:13 UTC - permalink
If I demand your money (for prection, of course), and that is backed by the threat of violence, that's stealing.
You don't want to call taxes stealing, because the entity doing the stealing also writes the law that defines what is legally theft.
(Note: I think taxes for thepublic good and the threat of punishment for failure to pay are both necessary... But let's not try and pretend it's not stealing.)
That’s so silly. You get a return on your investment in the government. Some people get a shittier return than others, sure. But everyone benefits from the programs that taxes provide.Comment removed from /Economics - Finally_Adult - Created on 07/24/18 14:48:43 UTC - permalink
Calling it stealing is silly.
I also get a return on my investment when I pay a protection racket... And every that pays gets the benefitComment removed from /Economics - persolb - Created on 07/24/18 14:52:49 UTC - permalink
It’s so ridiculous to call taxes stealing. We elect officials to represent us, they enact taxation laws, which represent our interests. What are we stealing from ourselves? Silly...Comment removed from /Economics - Finally_Adult - Created on 07/24/18 14:56:10 UTC - permalink
You have a very optimistic view on government.Comment removed from /Economics - persolb - Created on 07/24/18 14:59:30 UTC - permalink
51% of the population votes in people to then take away everything some other subset of the population has. This isn't stealing?
(Note: this has happened in multiple counties, and this article is talking about a WAY waterered down version of this)
Everything? That’s a bit hyperbolic wouldn’t you say?Comment removed from /Economics - Finally_Adult - Created on 07/24/18 15:01:04 UTC - permalink
If people don’t participate in voting is that somehow the other people’s fault?
I understand government is inefficient, I don’t like the way all of it is spent for sure. But that doesn’t make taxes stealing.
Jesus Christ.Comment removed from /Economics - internal69audit - Created on 07/24/18 15:01:42 UTC - permalink
You missed my point. If 51% want to take your shit, they can legally do it. Your vote doesn't help at all.Comment removed from /Economics - persolb - Created on 07/24/18 15:04:15 UTC - permalink
Would you see this different than theft?
Ahh I see what you mean. I see you’ve turned a representative democracy into “stealing other people’s shit”Comment removed from /Economics - Finally_Adult - Created on 07/24/18 15:07:35 UTC - permalink
“Shit” costs money. Government provides services. If you don’t want to live in a state that provides government services there are a few available to move to.
Isn’t that a lot of the right-wing’s arguments? Don’t like how things are done: move.
There are checks and balances for a reason. Nobody’s coming for more than your fair share. You may disagree on what your fair share is, so I suggest voting. It’s never going to be 0, and above 0 isn’t stealing.
This fucking administration...Comment removed from /Economics - telltaleharte - Created on 07/24/18 15:10:12 UTC - permalink
The GOP can't afford to lose that voting bloc; naturally they'll get a bailout.Comment removed from /Economics - dispatch00 - Created on 07/24/18 15:13:38 UTC - permalink
Costing the taxpayers twice!
You can't steal what is rightfully yours.Comment removed from /Economics - MCVIXI - Created on 07/24/18 15:14:34 UTC - permalink
How come nobody and where is the money coming from to fix Trump's screw ups, but try to pay for poor children's lunch all of a sudden Republicans are all up in arms about fiscal responsibilityComment removed from /Economics - jyz002 - Created on 07/24/18 15:16:12 UTC - permalink
☝️let me tell you folks 👐we are going to have the biggest most beautiful deficit 👈you know it, I know it. It’ll be 👌yuuuuge👌Comment removed from /Economics - myweed1esbigger - Created on 07/24/18 15:18:51 UTC - permalink
Hey! Isn't this theComment removed from /Economics - graynymph7459 - Created on 07/24/18 15:20:17 UTC - permalink
that had access to personal computers their entire lives? Fucking shits can't even 1v1 not online 😶😶😶🤣
This fucking entire country.....Comment removed from /Economics - OptimalDouche - Created on 07/24/18 15:20:38 UTC - permalink
Investments are voluntary.Comment removed from /Economics - AFreedomLover - Created on 07/24/18 15:20:55 UTC - permalink
Just bout some Maine lobster for under $5 per pound thanks to Chinese tariffs.Comment removed from /Economics - HuskyPupper - Created on 07/24/18 15:24:12 UTC - permalink
Nice work Trump! I love lobster and don't want those Chinese eating all mine.
You haven’t been paying attention, have you?Comment removed from /Economics - internal69audit - Created on 07/24/18 15:27:14 UTC - permalink
You’re Free to leave the United States of America at anytime you likeComment removed from /Economics - Finally_Adult - Created on 07/24/18 15:27:31 UTC - permalink
Where!!??!!Comment removed from /Economics - captainroyal - Created on 07/24/18 15:29:19 UTC - permalink
It is almost as if he routinely and effortlessly lies.Comment removed from /Economics - ChocolateSunrise - Created on 07/24/18 15:29:23 UTC - permalink
Shouldn't we have the revenue from the tariffs to use for things like this?Comment removed from /Economics - PigSlam - Created on 07/24/18 15:33:19 UTC - permalink
Comment removed from /Economics - mhornberger - Created on 07/24/18 15:33:55 UTC - permalinkand how that is simply not what was intended by founding fathers/constitution. Tyranny of the minority is worse than tyranny of the majority...Cue routine response that the nation was supposed to be a union of coequal, sovereign states, not a republic where we collectively choose our leaders. So in that model a rural state with 1% of the population of CA would be equal in power to CA. There is no way rural states are going to willingly give up the disproportionate power they have. They're going to take any effort to have their votes count the same as other citizens as them being disenfranchised.
🤦♂️ k. That was dumb.Comment removed from /Economics - AFreedomLover - Created on 07/24/18 15:36:31 UTC - permalink
Lol, sounds pretty voluntary to me.Comment removed from /Economics - Finally_Adult - Created on 07/24/18 15:36:56 UTC - permalink
I just expect every "decision" he makes to have a purely political reason, he's not working for any Americans other than the ones who like him.Comment removed from /Economics - Lukewarm_beans - Created on 07/24/18 15:37:06 UTC - permalink
Maine lobster has been cheap for years because of a glut caused by ocean warming which drove the lobster population north, right into the Maine coast. Science!Comment removed from /Economics - NemWan - Created on 07/24/18 15:37:31 UTC - permalink
Get that logic outta here!Comment removed from /Economics - dispatch00 - Created on 07/24/18 15:38:17 UTC - permalink
So today we’re pro socialism and welfare?Comment removed from /Economics - HighOnGoofballs - Created on 07/24/18 15:38:17 UTC - permalink
Hey man, us American are sorry. Please don't be too spiteful, we don't like the guy either!Comment removed from /Economics - Rugged_Refined - Created on 07/24/18 15:39:14 UTC - permalink
Hyperbole aside the Legislative system is designed to specifically give disproportionate power to states with smaller populations. Tyranny of the majority is a real concern when we think about political balance of power.Comment removed from /Economics - June1994 - Created on 07/24/18 15:40:08 UTC - permalink
Market basket.Comment removed from /Economics - HuskyPupper - Created on 07/24/18 15:42:12 UTC - permalink
Can finally get some big ones too. Got a 2.5 lb lobster. Haven't been able to find those let alone buy them for some time now.
While 5 dollar lobster sounds great and all, it's not really related to the topic.Comment removed from /Economics - Rugged_Refined - Created on 07/24/18 15:42:29 UTC - permalink
Also proof, or it didn't happen..
Damn, only exist in the New England area. We only have $6, 4oz Florida lobster tails here at Kroger in the south east.Comment removed from /Economics - captainroyal - Created on 07/24/18 15:44:00 UTC - permalink
Other industries aren't his core voters. It wouldn't make as much sense for Trump to give them free money.Comment removed from /Economics - Katholikos - Created on 07/24/18 15:46:53 UTC - permalink
You know what's worse than tyranny of the majority? Tyranny of the minority.Comment removed from /Economics - minno - Created on 07/24/18 15:49:43 UTC - permalink
We knowComment removed from /Economics - Deofol7 - Created on 07/24/18 15:50:34 UTC - permalink
1: Promise farmers and coal miners that you are their president and will fight for them.Comment removed from /Economics - palindrome_is_not - Created on 07/24/18 15:51:51 UTC - permalink
2: Start a trade war that directly damages the farmers and coal miners
3: Use tax dollars to subsidize your inability to make any meaningful policy to fulfill your promise to the farmers and coal miners.
4: Get millions of votes from farmers and coal miners.
This is the world we live in.
Sure, but the current issue has more to do with the parts the Constitution left unaddressed rather than vice versa. Also, a tyranny of the minority can be overcome or contained, tyranny of the majority is rather absolute.Comment removed from /Economics - June1994 - Created on 07/24/18 15:53:13 UTC - permalink
I'm 35. My father was a laborer and I'm an engineer. When adjusting for inflation and factoring in his overtime vs me being salaried, he made the same amount of money 30 years ago that I do today.Comment removed from /Economics - Red_bearrr - Created on 07/24/18 15:55:17 UTC - permalink
Hi 35, I'm dad!Comment removed from /Economics - dadjokes_bot - Created on 07/24/18 15:55:18 UTC - permalink
Comment removed from /Economics - KinterVonHurin - Created on 07/24/18 15:55:45 UTC - permalinknd how that is simply not what was intended by founding fathers/constitution.What? That was the exact intention of the founding fathers, that even little states the rest of the country considers backwater would be able to have a say: that's literally the point of the electoral college.
Because they are full of shit.Comment removed from /Economics - Tullay - Created on 07/24/18 15:57:20 UTC - permalink
It's not only that though, the Senate cuts down on the power of Gerrymandering. You can't cut up a state so that it's Senate representation is wildly unlike it's demographic. However the problem with that is then you get crazy things like North Dakota having the same representation as California in the Senate.Comment removed from /Economics - changee_of_ways - Created on 07/24/18 16:00:16 UTC - permalink
I think the real problem is the fact that Democracy is too much work for most people who live in the modern world. "Government of the People" requires The People to do the actual work of governing, and in our case they have totally abandoned their duties.
I have a garden in my backyard, where do I sign up for hand outs?Comment removed from /Economics - fogcity89 - Created on 07/24/18 16:00:48 UTC - permalink
You are equating having your vote count the same as mine as living under a tyranny. There is no system where rural states don't have disproportionate power that wouldn't count as a tyranny to them. Rural states aren't worried about balance of power, rather they're worried about preserving their disproportionate power.Comment removed from /Economics - mhornberger - Created on 07/24/18 16:01:45 UTC - permalink
"Balance" for them is not between the citizens of our country (that they count as 'tyranny') but between states, as if they are sovereign and independent coequal entities. A model under which a state with 1% the population of CA would still have equal sway over the laws of the nation. You didn't rebut anything I said, merely reiterate it.
> You are equating having your vote count the same as mine as living under a tyranny. There is no system where rural states don't have disproportionate power that wouldn't count as a tyranny to them. Rural states aren't worried about balance of power, rather they're worried about preserving their disproportionate power.Comment removed from /Economics - June1994 - Created on 07/24/18 16:10:03 UTC - permalink
Rural states have disproportionate power by design. Which is a good thing. For a long time this country was under the tyranny of the majority, so the concern over minority power is very real. The issue here isn't that minority groups shouldn't be have disproportionate political power, but rather that the majority cannot effectively wield theirs. This is due to technology and lack of campaign finance regulations, not because rural states have too much power.
> "Balance" for them is not between the citizens of our country (that they count as 'tyranny') but between states, as if they are sovereign and independent coequal entities. A model under which a state with 1% the population of CA would still have equal sway over the laws of the nation. You didn't rebut anything I said, merely reiterate it.
I did rebut what you said, you're insinuating that rural states having disproportionate power is a bad thing. It's not, they should fight to keep the current design of the government. That's necessary to prevent large and powerful states from unilaterally dictating the course of the country. That's something that's been in place by design since the inception of this country. You're attributing the current political climate to the wrong cause.
How old are you?Comment removed from /Economics - dronepore - Created on 07/24/18 16:10:50 UTC - permalink
Except the minority has already fought and had the original system changed to preserve their power.Comment removed from /Economics - squashinmonks - Created on 07/24/18 16:21:07 UTC - permalink
The most significant example of the tyranny of the minority is slavery, which took over two centuries to dismantle and still affects us to this day.Comment removed from /Economics - June1994 - Created on 07/24/18 16:26:31 UTC - permalink
The article you linked has less to do with what we are currently discussing and more to do with the concentration of power in the hands of a smaller powerful group of people. That issue applies to all states equally, be they rural or the Californias and Texases of the Union.
I think the key here is that the constitution was written with the 13 colonies in mind. I don't think the founding fathers had any idea that we would end up with 50 states spanning both oceans, so I think we have a far greater disparity than they ever imagined we would.Comment removed from /Economics - Wingzero - Created on 07/24/18 16:26:49 UTC - permalink
This is so the farmers that voted for Trump’s get tough policy get bailed out of their decision with your tax money.Comment removed from /Economics - RestrictedAccount - Created on 07/24/18 16:27:33 UTC - permalink
Can't wait for Republicans to scream about Democrats "buying votes" in the 2018 Mid-terms.Comment removed from /Economics - HTownian25 - Created on 07/24/18 16:32:26 UTC - permalink
I'm much less concerned with what the Founding Fathers than with whether something is practical or not. The Founding Fathers designed an excellent system for their time and the philosophy guiding their design was very forward thinking. I don't think that rural states are in the wrong for trying to push their interests nor do I think that the manner in which they do so is insidious. The same tools after all, are available to all states. I think the far bigger issues are the things that the Founders didn't address. I don't think they realized just how much special interests could affect politics. The political class was fairly small at the time and the political system of the first four Presidents pales in complexity when compared to the late 20th and 21st century.Comment removed from /Economics - June1994 - Created on 07/24/18 16:33:31 UTC - permalink
I think that there are far too few rules concerning how we elect our leaders and far too few rules concerning money in politics.
Haha and the Trump 2nd term presidency is securedComment removed from /Economics - papeold - Created on 07/24/18 16:34:19 UTC - permalink
No, that was the point of the Senate.Comment removed from /Economics - ChornWork2 - Created on 07/24/18 16:36:09 UTC - permalink
The impact slavery had on the electoral college is undeniable -- the south would not accept one-person, one-vote (and obviously wouldn't let blacks vote), and hence the vile 3/5ths compromise and the need for a system other than popular vote for the presidency.
And likewise gerrymandering of the House has become a perversion. Layering the impact on the judicial branch by virtue of the appointment process, and we have minority of population being able to control all the branches of government... that is not what was intended.
Pick up the July 14 edition of the Economist if you can -- link to most the relevant article below if have subscription or otherwise able to access.
Right. “Balance” to them is that 10 square miles of mostly trees, vegetation, and crops should have more say than 10 square miles where a few million actual people reside.Comment removed from /Economics - harbison215 - Created on 07/24/18 16:36:25 UTC - permalink
Honestly, it’s because Democrats have a hard time describing their position.Comment removed from /Economics - TonyzTone - Created on 07/24/18 16:36:52 UTC - permalink
If they pick up the argument that we can’t pay for these things, Republicans will agree and ask to slash government spending across the board. That hurts Democrats politically (weakening public sector union workforce) and electorally (constituents everywhere have services reduced). This is a downward cycle as the country begins to lose faith in government and the idea that “government is the problem” spreads leading to more cuts in the future.
Democrats need to get aggressive and actually play the game by “holding possession.” This means sayin we’d be happy to provide subsidies for hurting farmers, but first you have to pay for X. That could be healthcare, education, infrastructure, or whatever.
|Do you think online poker will go through another boom when it is fully reintegrated in the United States? What is the biggest way that most online poker pros have maintained their way of living post Black Friday? Do you have any other docs in the works? I really enjoyed Bet Raise Fold.||I think it would be v hard for it to "boom" (like explode out of nowhere like it did in the 2000s) again, but it will surely grow, and I'm optimistic that it will grow to be an even larger industry than before (over the long run, could take a decade or more). like Yoda says, "hard to see, the future is." totally applies to the future of online poker - there are so many known and unknown variables at play at all times.|
|How much of 2M2MM was staged? It was a very entertaining show to watch.. any chances for another season?||Hmm, hard to say. all reality TV is staged to some degree. from what I understand/gleaned from the production team working on the show (they were all vets of the reality TV world, worked on shows like Amazing Race and Ghost Hunters), 2M2MM trended much closer to the documentary side of reality tv than most. that said, I often compare the experience of 2M2MM like being an actor playing myself - and I think everyone who participated would prob agree w that. the plots of each episode were set up in advance (though we'd argue vigorously with the prodco to make sure if anything was "set up for the show" it'd be something we normally might do in real life). the most staged stuff would be like the house wars vs aejones/luckychewy (situation set up for the show), or aspects of the Benyamine match (Erica Schoenberg is at the pool specifically for our scene, it's not a chance encounter), or Dani and Chewy hunting for girls for the Connect 4 Charity episode. the completely real stuff is all the poker action - our bankrolls and emotions on full display for the world!|
|The Tilt Room was set up for the show, too - maybe my greatest invention all time. smashing watermelons with a sledgehammer is an awesome way to de-tilt (but very wasteful!!! smashing pottery - more responsible way to fill your tilt room, ppl)|
|Did you guys ever wake up Emil?||On 2M2MM, the production team famously had to break down two doors of his (he won the master bedroom and it was so ballin it had two doors he could lock to keep people out) to wake him up for a shoot towards the end of filming.|
|We did wake him up, and he had a piece of that action - so it was a more pleasant awakening than the times we'd prank wake him by telling him all the pizzerias in NY were on strike or the house was on fire.|
|Actually, did Viffer ever find out about his pot bet bluffing tell?||I heard he went into lockdown and wouldn't come out until he had fixed it :)|
|Who would be in your team of poker player super heroes and who would their x-men or avengers counter parts be?||Maybe best question anyone has ever asked.|
|Ashton Griffin - Wolverine.|
|Ben "Sauce" Sulsky - Beast.|
|Ziigmund - Thor.|
|Dani Stern - The Incredible Hulk.|
|Vanessa Selbst - Jean Grey.|
|Aaron "aejones" Jones - Iron Man.|
|Jennifer Harman - Storm.|
|Erik Seidel - Captain America.|
|Chris Ferguson - Gambit.|
|Not a superhero but Howard Lederer is totally Kingpin. (actually, Kingpin might have to be Ivey...)|
|ROSENKRANTZ - Do you still play poker as a main source of income? When you do play do you play online outside of the US or live?||Nope - i actually don't play much poker at all, outside of WSOP. i'll play in home games now and then but it's mostly a social thing. was thinking about making an extended trip to Montreal to visit Martin, hear him play music and grind online next year... i miss playing online poker a TON. what's more fun than stacking n00bs with AA.|
|Check-raising stupid fucking tourists?||Stacks and towers of checks I can't even see over!!!|
|Do you think that you could persuade the Alamo Drafthouse in Denver to have a showing?||If these three screenings (Yonkers, Austin, KC) are profitable for them, or I can show them we have a strong group of people in Denver who'd come out, it's a possibility...|
|Yo Krantz, where is the information on the one in Yonkers? I live in Queens would love to go and show my support.||Oh man, thanks for the support - it happened last week though :/|
|How often do you play live/online (hours per week/month or whatever)? What stakes? Also, you guys toss money around like toilet paper. Send me a couple grand so i can make a tilt/lockdown room and go pro.||Thanks, man! If you surf through some of the other posts in this thread you can read some more, but since Black Friday I don't play much poker live or online. If there were legal online poker in my state right now, I'd probably dabble in small and mid stakes and try to build up a bankroll playing NLHE/PLO cash (shorthanded and heads up) and the occasional tournament!|
|2M2MM was in 2009, 4+ years later and all that toilet paper is more valuable to everybody :)|
|With your experience in documentary and financing, can you get "I BET YOU" tv series back in production? phil laak craziness needs to be serialized.||If I ever run into him, I will plant the seed. should have run 6 seasons and a movie.|
|Do you think bitcoin will change the future of online gambling?||I'm still trying to wrap my head around bitcoin... i have these handy videos bookmarked to watch as soon as i get some free time! Link to www.khanacademy.org|
|Link to www.youtube.com|
|Do you see the games remaining as reg-infested and hard as they are now? Is there a point where everything about NLHE is basically known and therefore the skill level of most pros will be capped?||Not if the sites figure out how to bring in more casual players - a priority for their businesses as the US market legalizes and the global market matures. Hard to say what the games could look like in 5 years... I think there will be fewer pros/regs. Also think NLHE will always be the most popular game even though basic strategy is pretty well known to anyone who wants to put in the time.|
|Hi, Jay. Great movie, really enjoyed it.||Thanks! My plans are really to throw myself into writing and producing with the same focus and intensity that I gave to poker during my early 20s. I'd like to write and publish some books (fiction, nonfiction, poker, nonpoker), write and produce more movies, TV, games... I'm inspired by artists like Joss Whedon, Ray Bradbury, Hayao Miyazaki, Bill Watterson... entrepreneurs like Tim League, Burnie Burns and Felicia Day and the folks at VHX and Pixar and Valve... Basically, I want to build a career in popular entertainment, telling smart, resonant stories to larger and larger audiences. And I want to work with the best people I can while I do this.|
|What are your plans for the next 1-5 years?||I also plan to win the WSOP Main Event, but that could take 6-7 years because you gotta get lucky!|
|Are you still friends with the cast from 2M2MM and do you and any of them still rent a house in Vegas for the summer?||We are great friends! I actually lived with Emil and Brian in a house this summer while I was out at the WSOP premiering BRF. We worked out a ton (Brian is REALLY into Olympic weightlifting these days) and watched lots of movies. There was a movie theater room in the house and those guys have eclectic wide ranging tastes in film so it was really fun. One of our favorites was this Norwegian crime thrilleblack comedy called Headhunters: Link to www.imdb.com|
|Also I was one of the many backers on Kickstarter for BRF. How tedious was it putting everyone's name in the credits?||Dani, Brian and Emil lived together in Toronto for awhile post Black Friday but now Dani has a serious girlfriend, a dog and a cat and they're all living in different countries (well, Dani and Brian live near each other in Mexico but Emil's in Finland)|
|As poker players, do you feel like you've lost an appreciation for money? Who do you think is the most overrated poker player nowadays?||I definitely lost any conception of the value of the dollar during the height of the online poker boom. Post Black Friday, 3 years later, I feel like I have a much healthier and more reasonable relationship with money. I think any serious poker player has to divorce himself from the value of money in order to risk it with complete and utter disregard for anything but the expected value of the play. If I had to answer the overrated question... I'd say wcrider (sp?) is overrated. Not skill wise - I have no idea how good or bad he is objectively - but I've read a few of his forum posts on 2p2 and he is clearly young with a huge ego, and you just can't be the best in the world with an ego the size of an elephant (though it can give you some huge competitive advantages). But see how subjective a question like this is? For the most part the idea of underrated or overrated players is worthless, variance is a way bigger factor than anyone understands... the only person who can truly and accurately "rate" a poker player's skill is the player themselves!|
|Will there be any new videos on TheMicros?||I so hope so. The major problem for us is the economics... the cost of animating those episodes is pretty big in terms of money and time. The sponsorship model worked great pre-Black Friday, but post Black Friday and the market for an animated poker show is completely different. John and I have thought about Kickstarting it, but I'm not confident we could raise enough money to do it the way we'd want to (if we come back, we want to come back full throttle, with regularly scheduled content and season long storylines... we don't want to just put up an episode or two here or there). There are a few options I've been thinking about, but they're just ideas at this point.|
|There's a big possibility we'll come back soon with regular comics, though. You can check out some examples of what these would look like on our Facebook page (there's a photo gallery of the ~12 comics we've done so far): Link to www.facebook.com|
|Hey all, what are your thoughts on regulated poker, putting Delaware politely to one side, is there half a chance of it being successful in New Jersey, without interstate compacts? By successful, I probably mean will we see guy n girls like you in that state playing for a living? Will there be the liquidity to sustain a more than a handful of full timers?||I think it will be successful but it will not explode overnight, it will take time and nurturing like any good crop... growing the igaming business in NJ, the companies' priorities are not necessarily directly in line with catering to guys/gals like us who want to play for a living. So I don't think you'll see many full timers playing exclusively on NJ sites. See Joe Tall's post in this thread for more insight into this, it's pretty good!|
|Probably too late but I'll give it a shot anyway.||I tried to/try to study and it felt like pulling teeth. I became interested in applications of game theory for a few months and the challenge of reeducating myself in basic maths was interesting... but even then I didn't feel as energized or excited about thinking about poker as I did when I was able to play and compete consistently. I decided recently that I'd just take a break until I was able to play consistently again (I have been thinking about a trip to NJ or out of the country to grind for a bit, but it's just an idea right now).|
|Any words of advice here?||I'm tired so this is kind of rambly and I'm just talking some of this out loud for the first time, but I hope this helps a bit. Post Black Friday I've done a lot of reevaluating my relationship with poker and the expectations I have of it and it's done a lot to reverse feelings of anger, sadness and frustration at the US situation (and at the game in general).|
|What was the biggest thing you guys have bet on beside poker?||Games of NFL Blitz, trick pool shots, what LuckyChewy thinks the distance from the Earth to the sun is, whether [name redacted] can get those strippers to come ride the inflatable dolphin, oveunder of how long they can ride it for before falling in pool... countless thousands have been won and lost on these diabolical problems.|
|off, great movie! It was well worth the wait. My question is this, what is the craziest, most extravagant thing you purchased with your poker winnings?||Thank you! whitelime reminds me of a night in NYC at a club called Arena (who knows if this place still exists), where we went heads up against NYG running back Brandon Jacobs in a bottle-buying war. the bottles came equipped with sexy bottle babes and sparklers. we lost the bottle war to BJ (in hindsight i think we lost the battle, too - huuuge tab)|
|I want to first thank you for establishing an amazing training site in DC. It has helped my game immensely. For the questions: would you consider yourself more of a filmmaker or poker player at this point? In a podcast slowhabit noted poker helped his entrepeneurship immensely and vice versa. Do you see any similar parallels b/t poker and film-making?||Thanks! I'll always consider myself a poker player, but in terms of profession I suppose I'm trending towards the filmmaker side of the coin. But all of the creative work I do will be influenced by the unique way I see the world - a viewpoint heavily influenced by poker. It's an insanely beautiful game: a complex blend of strategy, tactics and human emotion. Being a poker player isn't a profession to me, it's something I can't help... at this point it's part of the fabric of my identity.|
|I don't think we would have ended up with a movie this good (or maybe not a movie at all!) if Taylor and I didn't bring our backgrounds in poker and entrepreneurship to bear to make as many +EV decisions as we possibly could over the entirety of the project. In a lot of ways filmmaking is an entrepreneurial pursuit, in a lot of ways producing a movie is like multitabling high stakes online poker. You're juggling tons of variables, managing human relationships, analyzing risk, making high pressure decisions...|
|I talk a lot about this stuff in this podcast with Jared Tendler: Link to www.mentalgamefish.com|
|I really enjoyed the movie and showed it to my family. But their reaction across the board was: "But they only portray people who win in the game!". What do you think of this reaction? Isn't portraying mostly the pros or winning player missing a big slice of what online poker is.||We were originally interested in finding a losing player... posting what Ryan posted earlier about this: "Yes, we were planning to follow someone exactly like that. However, we found it more challenging than we expected to find a compelling, losing player who was willing to go on camera. For example, I spoke briefly with grimstarr (online poker veterans will know who this is) about appearing in the film, but there were too many complications involved." After Black Friday it became pretty much impossible for us to add another character, winner or loser. We also felt like the downsides of poker had already been given a lot of treatment in the cultural representation of the game... but nothing had been done to authentically show the lives of modern professional poker players during the poker boom. Still, we did have many conversations about the losers, about the pros who are staked, etc... what we should or could convey about that aspect of the game... ultimately we decided we needed to stick to our core characters (especially after Black Friday) and their experiences. We did make an effort to explore the psychological consequences of losing as a professional, and the risks that you take on when you do play this game for a living... hopefully that sequence in the last third of the film can show that even the winners are losers, and they lose often! Basically, a lot of the energy for this project's conception was to showcase what it was like to be an online pro player, and dispel misconceptions that the public has about poker and online poker. To show the injustice done to the industry as a result of the UIGEA... to show what caused the boom... historical events like this, put into context in a digestible way. That was the driving motivation in making the film and selecting Danielle, Tony and Martin - and after Black Friday, their stories were all that mattered to this particular film. Hope this sheds some light on our thinking.|
|Hey Krantz!||Play tons of poker, think about it with a truly open mind and engage in critical discussion of poker with tons of players of all skill levels. Tenacity and fearlessness are your words to live by (and maybe "breathe," for when you're tilting).|
|What advice would you have for an online player from the us that plays on bovada to move up the stakes. Currently grinding double-up sit n gos and crushing ?||I really love this post about training and practice. If you want to move up and become better, work hard and work smart: Link to forumserver.twoplustwo.com|
|Jay, I asked you on twitter during the months leading up to the release about selling autographed pictures of some online pros in the movie on kickstarter to raise money. You replied saying it was a good idea and you'd look into it. I was thrilled, but become really bummed when I saw that the signed movie poster costs $200. I wish I could afford it, but I just can't. I graduate from university in a week and still don't have a job offer, so this is above my price range. Since you have 18/20 left, is there a chance of a price drop for them in the future?||We actually only managed to get about 5-7 signed posters total and ran out! but email me your info at [email protected] and i will see if we can find some way to get you something cool! (i remember your tweets!)|
|In the home game you had on 2m2mm, did Andrew robl ever tell you what his other card was? He showed you a jack he hit on the river..||He didn't - I tried to get it out of him, but he wouldn't say. based on what I know of him i'm 95% sure it was a good fold (5% he made a sick bluff and is so buddha he doesn't need to brag or show it on TV)|
|I loved BRF by the way and my dad liked it too. It helped him understand "my world" a little better.||You gotta learn the language of filmmaking, and you gotta experiment (in poker terms, you can't just study - you hafta play hands!). So try to make a little short documentary about something (this is what we did - FROM BUSTO TO ROBUSTO ended up being essential practice in learning to make something as big as BRF) and take it all the way through from preproduction to marketing and distribution, even if it's just on the tiniest scale.|
|I'm sure you learned so much throughout the course of making the film, so if you could go back to give yourself advice from when you just started BRF, what would you say?||Thanks! It's awesome to hear about friends/family enjoying the movie. I'm heading out to host this theatrical screening in Austin but I will get back to you on your question tonight. OK, I'm back. I'm glad you love FCH because my first bit of advice is to read the ebook he just released: Link to www.amazon.com|
|I am curious on roughly how sales are going? How did you choose how to distribute the film. Really enjoyed the film.||Direct sales through VHX were great. Not tens of thousands of people but very strong for an independent documentary. The decision to distribute the film through a combination of Kickstarter, VHX and Tugg (skipping film festivals in favor of debuting at the 2013 World Series of Poker) was made mostly as a result of talking to other filmmakers, studying the success of Indie Game: The Movie (Link to www.indiegamethemovie.com and reading Think Outside the Box Office (Link to www.amazon.com)|
|If we could go back and do it again I don't think we would have done much differently. The biggest change I'd have made to our strategy would have been to organize a ~6 city Tugg tour of the film to build hype before the online release, and to incorporate Kickstarter earlier in the production (it would have been really fun and cathartic to share the ups and downs of the whole production process with backers!)|
|Just rewatched 2M2MM a few weeks back...LOL at Jay's roller skating penalty stunt. Question about the doc...how did you decide on profiling Dunst, Alexei and Danielle? Who else was a finalist to be featured?||Still got those roller skates!|
|Why does ansky keep knocking me out of ftops!!||Pretty sure this stems from his anger issues. see 2M2MM Mach 5 snap call argument for evidence. he HULKS out when he sees your SN and smashes your soul!|
|Not so much a question as an obvious point. Loved the film, loved being a part of it and helping out. I really don't have anything else. If anyone here hasn't seen the film yet, do so asap. It really is an incredible piece of work.||Love you too, bro! and not just because you're also named Jay. it's because the goddamn FORCE IS WITH YOU.|
|Given that Jay's poker training site, "Deuces Cracked" ( Link to www.deucescracked.co ), actually make Duck merchandise ( Link to img651.imageshack.us ), and your username is PERSIANDUCK i think you guys should form the first poker supergroup and call yourselves "THE MIGHTY DUCKS".||Those ducks are collectors items!!!|
|I assume this question was targeted at Jay or Tony/Danielle/Martin, but the most extravagant thing I ever purchased was an $800 couch. Still had the wrapper on it and everything.||Where'd you get $800?|
|Jay,The Texas Legislator will go back in to session in Jan of 2015. I expect that there will be hearing for both live and online poker. Since your living in the Austin would you be willing to testify at the State Capitol in Austin in front of the Texas State Legislator to help bring poker to Texas.||I love comedy but have 0 appetite for politics. I don't believe I could say anything that would be more helpful than what we've said in making Bet Raise Fold, and I don't believe that anything but money will help bring poker to Texas :)|
|Very tedious, but well well worth it. Thanks so much for supporting the project!||Yes, huge thank you for backing us!|
|Krantz, in a deucescracked video where you commentated with ariel about his match against tie53, bit of a famous hand. Q67hh-Tss, Tie53 check raises a committing size on the turn. we fold Q6. Do you still think this was a close fold with Q6 or do you appreciate now that it was probably wrong.||Don't recall the specifics of that hand but I think past Jay/past Ariel were probably right and no one, not even me from the future, would know better than them :)|
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